Bra adventures » Boob and body issues

Apr 11, 2013. French professor: wearing a bra is harmful! ( :D )

Here is a link to this article:
http://www.iltalehti.fi/terveys/2013041116891280_tr.shtml

Unfortunately it is in Finnish, but maybe it can be translated by google or so.

Basically this sports medicine professor says that those women´s boobs, who wear a bra, are more droopy than others´. He also says that wearing a bra does not reduce shoulder and neck pain, but in the worst cases ... makes tha pains worse!! He does acknowledge that this might not be true for all women and that if one has worn a bra for years, it is of no advantage if you stop wearing it.

I cannot believe his results, they sound unbelievable!! I´d like to know, how many women there were in his study group... And if he says, that bras cause sagginess, BUT also that if you have already worn bras for years, it is no use to stop wearing them now, then where did he find enough those women that have never worn a bra? And what was his enough...

I don´t really read all these "scientific studies" anymore, I don´t think they often provide me with useful information. You could have these women in the study group, but you really cannot know how THEIR boobs would be if they have behaved differently accordint to their bra-wearing. And there must be other factors as well, that affect, for example sports, diet, general life style, etc. If you never wore a bra and do for example horse back riding, I could imagine boobs not being very non-saggy after many years...

ETA. I re-read the article and it doesn´t make sense, that he says that if you already have worn a bra for years, there are no benefits in stopping to wear it, then in another sentence he uses a woman, whose shoulder / neck pains reduced after she stopped wearing a bra, as an example. I do think that his findings might have something to do with wearing bras that are ill-fitting!! So how does this research benefit people when we don´t know, if those women´s bras were fitting or ill-fitting... :-/
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- I definitely think they were ill-fitting. And I really don't believe that boobs stay perkier WITHOUT a bra o_O I mean, it's mostly fatty tissue and no matter if your boobs are small or big, they kinda work like weights do for men when they do pec exercises with weights. Sure, our boobs aren't nearly as heavy as the weights men lift while training, but do you know the difference? They workout with those weights probably 20 minutes at maximum per day. We lift our weights all day long. Of course that puts some stress on our bodies! Gravity isn't fake, and so our little (or big) weights push down putting strain on our bodies and likely the cooper's ligament --> sagging. Of course an ill-fitting bra can worsen backaches and so on. Ill-fitting jeans that are too tight can worsen stomach aches as well. Ill-fitting shoes can definitely worsen feet problems. Considering how many women wear ill-fitting bras... I call bullshit on this article.
- The article seems to be pretty much just translated from this Counsel & Heal article: http://www.counselheal.com/articles/4852/20130411/bras-make-breasts-saggier-15-year-french-study-reveals.htm
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Apr 11, 2013 -- Bras are not designed for conical breasts

Okay, maybe some bras work, but I haven't found them yet ...

What is the problem?

It seems that in every bra brand and model I have tried so far I INVARIABLY need wires that are one size up from the cup size I need. Triumph , Chantelle , Ewa Michalak , Masquerade ... , Curvy Kate , Fantasie , you name it, I've now been anything from a '32A' to (almost) '32E' -- measurements put me in 28 band territory, but there's no way I can wear bands that tight -- and I've always had the same problem: cup volume seems about right, wires are too narrow - wires fit, cup volume is too large. It (obviously?) is worse in brands like Freya that are allegedly narrower and deeper, but for some reason it isn't that much better in brands and models that are supposed to be relatively wider and shallower.

My breast roots aren't even THAT wide actually, my breasts are just somewhat widely spaced. They may be somewhat shallow, but they don't exactly go up to my collarbones. The real issue, I think, is that my breasts are the epitome of conical. When I look down on them I see two perfectly equilateral, almost entirely straight-edged triangles happily pointing outwards. There's a lot of talk of being full-here-or-there, but what if breasts aren't full anywhere? I don't mean breasts that are 'empty', but breasts that simply aren't 'round'. My breasts have been larger and smaller, they have been firmer and softer, but at no point in time were they significantly differently shaped and at no point in time have bras ever fit me (except perhaps at the height of breastfeeding when they were occasionally super-engorged and, indeed, rounder).

I apologise for the elegy, but I'm just somewhat disheartened by my latest fail
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- Well... I get the feeling.
  
  How about soft cups? And, have you tried 30 or 28 bands? I have half shallow boobs and when the band is tight the wires stretch out too.
- MilkAndHoney You're so right about that. All bras are made for round boobs. It's almost as if boobs not being round are "not even boobs". That's how invisible pointy is as an option. And that's also why for a long time I called my boobs "shapeless".
  
  I'm still something between pointy and round and outwards/downwards pointing. But I am by no means typically round and finding bras is indeed extremely hard.
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Apr 08, 2013 -- Interesting ... ?

I finally retook my measurements and I found confirmed what I already suspected: my breast perimeter is about 2cm smaller than it was 6-7 months ago, when I took my first set of measurements.

But to make things a bit more interesting, there were some unexpected side effects as well: my underbust is now about 2cm LARGER than it was ... before. Why? I haven't gained weight, or noticeable fluff, so what can possibly have caused this increase? The answer is actually laughably simple: being smaller, my breasts sit ever so slightly higher up my chest -- high enough on my über-conical torso for the new underbust line to measure significantly larger.

Then I also tried on some of my bras to update their 'fit' info and found something else interesting: as expected, my Rhea's fit quite differently -- the 30E - Masquerade » Rhea (6121) is now clearly too large and even though the 30DD - Masquerade » Rhea (6121) still fits my larger right breast well it gaps significantly on my smaller breast -- but I see NO difference whatsoever in my 60F - Ewa Michalak » Ch Onyx and 65DD - Ewa Michalak » Hm Gold (267). I swear those two 'fit' exactly the same as before -- the bands are obviously way too small, but the cups are surprisingly fine (and, boy, had I forgotten the perfection CH is, shape-wise ... !) even though my breasts are clearly smaller. I also don't see much difference in my 28F Andorra Full Cup , but my Chantelles really show: 70E - Chantelle » Rive Gauche T-back Spacer Bra (3282) always was slightly big but is now laughably so and 70D - Chantelle » Rive Gauche T-back Spacer Bra (3282) has turned into almost perfect fit instead. My 32E - Triumph » Amourette (300) fits perfectly now, but although I like it from the front, profile-wise and from the top it really gives the ugliest shape ever -- can't believe I used to live in this model before my pregnancy (size 32A) ... !

I'm gradually going to update my bra reviews with these and some other observations (mostly on band size) as well. And hope my recent Figleaves and Bravissimo orders arrive shortly
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- Interesting! What happens if you wear the too small Ewa bands with an extender?
  
  I've been thinking about this when it comes to myself, but for me it's the opposite: Better scoping was possible due to weight loss. It made my underbust line move downwards, since I simply scope up and in all the fat on my sides from waist and up.
  
  And even if my ribcage is slightly conical and I got some conical problems in 34F I also have those protruding ribs in the front so I am now bigger on the bottom I would say because of ribs certainly being harder than fat.
  
  Also my back is so tiny compared to my front.
  
  So I figured; what if getting lats to make the ribcage more conical and so I maybe might prevent my backs from riding up all the time? :D
  
  For bands not riding up on me I would need a 32 band at the biggest. But I simply cannot stand them with this on and off going heartburn thing.
- I've got lats and loosish bands don't ride up. I alter them for better support, but they're more likely to slide down under the weight of my boobs than to ride up. They need to be like 2 sizes too big at least to ride up.
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Torn between two choices

When I wear my altered down to 24F bra, I want to throw up. When I wear my 28DD CK Ella bra, I want to throw up. When I'm not wearing a bra, my boobs bounce and they hurt.

Do I throw up or do I bounce painfully?

Can't wait to get to my "final" size, so I can order a bra that won't make me hurl!

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nyannekochan

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5 comments
- Why do they make you want to throw up? Is it just because they're so uncomfortable? Doesn't sound fun!
- How far along are you? I know it's no guarantee, things USUALLY get better as you get further ... although I hate to break to you that you may not really reach a 'final' size during pregnancy or even during breastfeeding ... :(
  
  If wearing a proper bra make you feel sick, but no bra makes your breasts hurt, some things you can try are a cropped top or vest-like thing, a (minimal compression) sports bra without underwires, or even a (maternity) camisole with inbuilt shelf bra. Theses things may not give you the best possible support or most sublime shape, but they are probably more comfortable than the alternatives you mentioned.
  
  And please don't despair: it's only temporary -- you won't be pregnant forever!
  
  (edited for completion)
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Feb 06, 2013 -- When +0 just doesn't work ... venting my frustration.

Sometimes the +0 fitting rule, or underbust measurement = band size, just doesn't seem to work.

If you, like me, have a very conical ribcage and/or shallow breasts, chances are you have to size up in the band to prevent overstretched wires and distorted cups. If you, like me, lack 'padding' and/or suffer from some kind of hypersensitivity affliction and/or ... for whichever reason cannot get used to the constant and rather high level of 'elastic compression' exerted by tight bra bands, chances are you may have to size up in the band to achieve any semblance of comfort.

And then there are the bras themselves. I'm more and more inclined to believing that many bras simply aren't designed to be worn +0, especially not on bodies like mine. Chantelle's moulded foam cups that come in 65/30 bands for example seem meant to be worn by 65cm ribcages -- not by 69cm/27" ribcages like mine and definitely not by 75cm/30" ribcages like the +0 rule suggests -- or the very flexible wires will overstretch and the cups distort horribly. In my, admittedly limited, experience more or less the same seems to apply to Bravissimo half cups, Panache Andorra and any unknown number of other bra models and brands.

However, will going up in band size (relative to +0) for any of the reasons listed above result in a bra that offers any kind of support for anything but the very smallest of breasts? No, it probably won't. Won't the bands right up monumentally and/or the centre gores hover miles away from the sternum? Oh yes, they probably will.

According to +0 I am a smallish 28F (the Butterfly Collection calculator even claims I should be looking at 26GG -- 24H if I like my bands even tighter!!! -- but to be honest, that seems like complete and utter nonsense to me). Whatever the numbers, I think it's safe to say I'm not particularly huge, so there shouldn't really be a reason to strangle myself with a bra band. However, I WOULD like SOME support for my ladies as they aren't exactly tiny either and their gravity defying days are, unfortunately, quite over.

But here I feel I'm trapped: I cannot wear bands +0 style for the reasons mentioned above (and I really shouldn't have to), but looser bands seem to offer little to no support and have all sorts of problem of their own (riding up, floating gores). Assuming that my ideal band size is then somewhere between 60/28 and 70/32 and my ideal cup size subsequently between E/F and D/DD, it also doesn't really help that my size puts me right at the bottom end of the full bust 'speciality' brands -- which I so far haven't found to work very well for my shape -- and right at the top end of the 'regular' brands -- which I haven't found to work very well for me either.

What is a girl to do?!

To me it seems that the way modern bras are designed and constructed is fundamentally flawed: a supporting garment shouldn't have to rely on elastic compression of a tiny sliver of the body alone to stay in place. Even ordinary SOCKS are nowadays drafted more cleverly -- and more healthily!!! -- than that!
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- I am probably the only one person here (oops and Denocte) who think that +0 inches rule is wrong so I'm looking forward to read what other girls will write.
- I don't believe in "rules" based on a measuring tape alone. No matter how often they get described as "only a starting point", people seem to take them as the law... even faced with bras after bras that don't fit in their supposed size, they'll keep on saying "but I am a *insert size*". They just have to size up/size down in every model they've tried!
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Jan 09, 2013 -- Conical ribcage and how it affects bra fit?

I my last bra adventure -- here: http://www.bratabase.com/profile/3rx/adventures/453/ -- I explored the relationship between band tension, wire strength, cup shape, and smaller/shallower breasts. I concluded that in order for wires to not overstretch and distort the cup shape in the process, band tension has to be balanced, either by the weight/momentum of the breasts, or by the rigidity ... of the wires themselves. If there isn't enough weight/momentum as in the case of smaller/shallower and the wires aren't rigid enough to withstand the band tension then they will overstretch and the cups will be distorted, even if the band size is essentially correct.

This overstretching of the wires is something that seems to happen to me all the time. It has affected almost every bra I've tried and the few bras that weren't obviously affected by it began to feel seriously tight and uncomfortable after some wear. The wire issue, I think, is a major factor in why I simply can't seem to find anything the really fits AND flatters my shape. As for the few bras that do seem to work the discomfort eventually is simply too great. For reference: I measure 27" around my underbust. MOST 28 bands or size equivalents thereof should fit me comfortably or even be roomy, if anything. Except that they don't and aren't.

Above explanation appears to highlight part of the problem. Another part, I realised today, is that my ribcage is unusually conical. I started wondering how a conical ribcage affects bra fit and came to the conclusion that it may actually explain why I feel I'm better off with 30 bands: try wrap a flat tape measure around a conical shape, holding it in place at the 'centre front'. It will NOT stay horizontal -- instead it will curve up towards the back. If the band is elastic and forcefully kept horizontal it's easy to see that more tension will develop in the upper part of the band, as the circumference of the conical shape there is greater than at the bottom edge. To counteract this, most bras are designed to an extent to take this into account (that's why the wings appear to angle downward), but what if a ribcage is more conical than that?

(1) The band may try to settle under an angle which might result in either
(a) cups slipping down in front -- is this what was happening with Ewa Michalak CHP and the Curvy Kate Tease Me I tried?! -- or, if one manages to hike up the wires and keep them there,
(b) a band that feels tighter than it really is as this angled circumference is necessarily greater than the original horizontal 'underbust' circumference.

(2) If the band somehow manages to settle more or less horizontally on the ribcage, the tension along the upper part of the band will be greater than along the lower edge, which means that the wires will still be stressed more than they normally would. The band may not feel too tight --and the bottom edge of the band really isn't -- but the wires would still be overstretched and the cups distorted, especially when combined with a lack of counter balance in due to smaller/shallower breasts.

Of course, any combination of the above is also possible.

I have a feeling that I'm getting close to solving at least part of the mystery of my bra fitting problems and that the solution for this part is actually rather simple: go up a band size and if necessary alter the band down by taking out wedges that are wider at the bottom than at the top to make the band more curved to suit my unusually conical ribcage.

The part that remains is finding a bra with cups that fit ... can it be that a conical ribcage also affects cup size?

And while I'm at it, unpadded half cups, suggestions anyone?
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- I had never thought about this before, but this definitely happens to me! I've always wondered why I measure 27" yet prefer a 30 band unless the band runs large (i.e. deco). I have the same conical ribcage as you, I always speculated that if my boobs weren't in the way and I'd be able to measure my underbust vs where the top of the band hits, the top measurement would be bigger.
  
  The biggest problem I've had with this is with my Freya longlines. I have 3 of them, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to either alter them or sell at least one because as 30 bands they are too big at the bottom and therefore roll up and just act weird in general.
  
  This is very interesting, and I'm excited to see if more recommendations for this shape pop up.
- My Masquerade Rheas in 28 have their wires stretch and cups distort. My Masquerade Rheas in 30 on the other hand have the 'band settling under an angle' problem which makes them feel painful and tight after a couple of hours wear. My 65 HM Gold also has the latter problem -- I simply HAVE to take it off after a couple of hours, because it just becomes so darn uncomfortable. The wires start really pressing against my ribs right under my breasts and the back starts to slowly kill me.
  
  To some this 'settling under an angle' problem may sound like the band 'riding up' due to being too loose, but believe me, these bands are NOT too loose. Going DOWN a band size is no option as I wouldn't even be able to close them. It would also only make the wires and cups distort even more.
  
  I still have to try this, but I'm really hoping that altering the bands so they are slightly shorter along the bottom edge -- i.e. more curved to suit a more conical than average ribcage; the equivalent of a 30 band along the top and a 28 along the bottom, for example -- will solve these issues.
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Jan 06, 2013 -- On band tension, wire strength, cup shape, and smaller breasts

I measure 27" underbust. That means I'm well within 28 band size territory, possibly even below. Now, apart from the fact that I'm still in the process of getting used to wearing tighter bands, I'm finding that in many of the bras I've tried I end up with the following issue: I get a better SHAPE when I size up ... in the band, even though the smaller BAND definitely doesn't seem too tight. The tighter band seems to put undue tension on the cups though, resulting in wrinkles, puckers and a flattened shape that aren't remedied by bending the wires or any other trick I've tried to come up with, EXCEPT for wearing it with an extender.

But do I really need looser bands? Doesn't wearing a looser band go against everything proper bra fitting is about? After all, band sizing up, of course, results in a whole host of other fitting issues, from a band that feels slightly looser than I would consider ideal (if it isn't outright riding up), to a centre gore that is not tacking to my sternum as securely as it should (if it isn't outright floating).

I'm trying to understand what is happening here from an engineering point of view ... bear with me

Roughly speaking there are three main 'forces' working in a bra:

(1) bra band tension -- determined by band length and elasticity in relation to body circumference.
(2) the weight of the breasts -- determined by volume, density and breast tissue distribution, as well as breast shape: deeper breasts create a larger momentum than shallower breasts.
(3) underwire 'spring' -- determined by the strength and flexibility of the material.

These three forces should be in balance for the bra to function well, not just in terms of support, but also from the point of view of shaping. So what is going on when I find I get a better shape by band sizing up?

The Usual Suspect: the band is too tight.

What does a too tight band do? A band that is literally too tight for one's body circumference 'springs' the underwires open too much, distorting the cup shape, indeed resulting in a flattened, sub-optimum shape. However, let us assume that the band is actually not too tight for the body, but the cup shape problems still exist. How is that possible?

Suspect #2: the breasts do not provide enough counter balance.

The amount by which an underwire is 'sprung' depends on the band tension on the one hand and the counter weight of the breasts on the other. If the breasts aren't 'heavy' and/or projected enough for the way the bra is designed then the band tension isn't counter balanced by the breast weight and the wires are 'sprung' open too much, again, flattening the cups in the process and resulting in a sub-optimum shape. Now, as breast 'weight' isn't exactly something that can really be changed, what is left?

Suspect #3: the wires are too flexible.

If the breasts, because they are not 'heavy' and/or projected enough, cannot balance out the tension caused by the band, then the wires have to be strong enough to resist the force themselves. Ergo, contrary to intuition, when it comes to SHAPE, smaller cup sizes need LESS FLEXIBLE wires than larger cup sizes in the same design (note that I'm talking about cup shape here, not support!). Of course, cups can be designed to incorporate more wire spring but that would require a completely different approach from what seems to be common practice.

There actually is a suspect #4 as well, I realise as I write this: the amount of elastic pull in the band is too great. In theory a band that is less stretchy though not tighter could solve the problem of too much tension on the wire too, but this would cause all sorts of other issues, the most obviously being wearing (breathing) ease.

If wire strength is taken into account in bra design and manufacturing at all it usually results in more flexible wires being used in the smaller cup sizes. 'Because smaller cup sizes need less support'. But flexible wires do nothing for the shaping of smaller breasts unless an entirely new approach to cup design is adopted too! But that approach would be unnecessarily complicated, wouldn't it? Three variables, two of which can be controlled (band tension and wire strength) and one that would only lead to guess work (breast 'weight') -- it seems to me that better fitting cups that do not flatten smaller breasts are only a 'wire strength' away.
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- I must say, this also goes for bigger sizes too. When I get the time I'll photograph my andorra wire experiments - the cup is the right volume when I bend the wires in the right shape, but they get distorted by the band (that is btw borderline riding up, the wires are that weak) and hello quadboob and empty fabric on the sides.
  I wonder though why haven't you taken the straps into account? I would think they do have a role in the forces division? Not a crucial one, but still?
- The Andorra has way too flexible wires in my opinion, and by your comment I'm guessing not just in my size. I'm definitely not a fan of too flexible wires IN ANY SIZE, but that is not really the problem I'm trying to address in my little 'novel' above ... I was simply musing about these problems I personally keep encountering considering cup shape -- I may be totally off in my analysis :)
  
  Anyway, the straps as you mention of course also factor in, but for this post I was mostly thinking of the 'horizontal' forces involved. The purpose of the construction of a well-fitting bra is after all to divert as much vertical tension as possible horizontally, relieving the straps of (some of) their load-bearing function. In addition, in smaller cup sizes the role of the straps is much less critical than in the larger cup sizes when it comes to dealing with said load-bearing. For the purpose of this rambling I didn't feel it necessary to go into this aspect as well -- the thing got long enough as it is ;)
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