30F - Salem's Scissors » Taylor

Measurement	Cm
Search by measurements
Fits ribcage	0.0
B. perimeter	0.0
Stretched Band	95.0
Band Length	75.0
Stretch ratio	1.3
Bust perimeter	93.0
Depth ratio	0.0
Gore height	0.0
Wing height	10.0
Strap width	1.0
Hooks	3

Index	30:7
UK	30F
US	30G

4

After watching her video, it's pretty clear why your bras don't fit. This gal clearly has no idea how bra fit works. Also, I was pretty insulted hearing her put 40DDD out as a huge size (I mean most plus retailers now sell up to US H so it's obvious she is unaware of the plus bra market). I must be a monster to her. I was thinking of trying to order from her because I love her Watson pattern (that's her longline)+ fabrics but I know for sure she could not fathom how to fit/design a bra for a US 40N wearing me.

I'm sure her video was well-intentioned but I think this is a good example of why many small businesses could use the help of marketing consultants or brand managers. Creating a message that doesn't alienate customers is really difficult for corporations so if it's just you and your experiences going into branding, pitfalls are likely.

Will you and Magda take her advice and try to exchange either of your bras? They are quite beautiful. Did they feel good fabric wise?

1

Also, thanks so much for this review and all your reviews, which are so helpful to me.

3

Ugh, she is measuring the band size over the breast. I had a fitter do this to me too. Hello, I don't need support up there. I need it under my boobs.

6

oh LORD hold me back I almost threw my laptop listening to this child ramble on cluelessly! NO not all of your customers' bodies are the same nor can you use a single equation based on their body measurements to figure out what will fit them. Arrrgghhhh!!!!!!!

I can't imagine what a large-band/cup person would feel hearing her condescending little voice commenting on their body/bra size. The unmitigated cheek. It's not a good look to project the same chutzpah, rude condescension and know it all attitude as Ewa Michalak but without the massive product range and actual technical know-how.

* for anyone interested, even the SAME person at different body weights and sizes/states cannot be fit using the same equation. When I was 20-30lbs overweight my above-bust measurement happened to be a neat 32.0" which happened to match my properly fitting band size at the time. I've now lost the weight and my above-bust # has not changed but many 32s are way too loose on me.

cupandahalf are you in the FB Lingerie Addicts page, I'm sure there is someone there who can recommend a shop that makes similar items properly in your size range!

3

I promise, Salem's Scissors is well-intentioned. And, like most of us, she is still learning. Helpfully, our feedback and requests for sizes outside the matrix will help expand her perspective.

1

wendybien Im not! I will check it out!

3

Love4Pollinators I don't doubt that she is well-intentioned, but when you're accepting people's hard-earned money for your items while still learning on the fly and before having any sort of truly in-depth expertise, it's advisable to try to project a little humility. I mean the video ends with her basically saying that she assumes customers who request sizes she considers improbable, are actually knowingly lying to her about their size. Just, no.

4

So much cringe... Her video might be well-intentioned but she comes across as patronising and judgemental, even just her body language when talking about sizes.. Not even mentioning the content :(
The "I have seen it all, I have done it all" reminds me of the so-called Dunnng-Kruger effect, which just means that people require a certain level of expertise in a field even just to be able to grasp what the field means and be able to evaluate their own (lack of) expertise.
Another pet peeve of mine is saying that "I am size x", which is not really correct (one wears a certain size in a certain brand).

3

.....after I reading MiskiDwie review and a couple others....I actually messaged Sabrina from @SalemsScissors and explained to her the whole low down on very basic fitting bra sizing.....I even went in depth explaining how a 32 or 28 band does not measure 28/32 laying flat/unstretched.... then I gave her a butt-load of links to look at (here being the first one!!) And told her how much I, and many others, love her designs and ideas for her bras.....
On a personal note, I almost threw up watching her video...you can tell she is a youngin' from America and only knows what internet size charts tell her...

3

cupandahalf I actually messaged Sabrina, showed her the pictures and explained how she probably made a mistake, and she assured me that this is exactly what she meant, what she wanted to achieve and that the fit on me is perfect, while Magda's bra is a bit too small in the cups. She also explicitly asked us to review what was sent even when we told her the bras probably need alteration or complete remake. Not gonna lie, that took me aback a little. I am sure she means well, but the product of that is just not wearable at all.

3

Love4Pollinators you're right, I should not take it personally that she hasn't been bravangelized. She probably doesn't know any fat women with big boobs to talk to about bra sizes so for her 40DDD is the largest size at VC, thus the largest size in her lexicon.

MiskiDwie I hope she does remake them the way you want/need.

cupandahalf she declined to do so already.

2

Ugh.

3

LeProfessor if she responds back please let us know. I feel like the style could work for me if she understood how to make my size.

1

violetknight , Biiumers has experienced favorable results with the Florencia bralette. The Taylor bralette is designed to fit....very differently than many of us prefer.

1

Here is a link to her biography. http://www.salemsscissors.com/about-me
She is impressive--much more educated about bras than I was at her age. I hope our comments are helpful, motivating, and encouraging. She is one of our amazing Bratabase members.

Will do violetknight! So far no response, but there's the little check mark that denotes she saw it.

Love4Pollinators you're right, I shouldn't have said anything negative about this young lady, who is just hustling running her business. There are many different fit methods. And she probably hasn't fit someone like me. I know there are lots of bra makers out there that don't fit people the way most of us here like to be fit. Her designs are beautiful. I hope she helps MiskiDwie's coblogger get the fit she needs.

5

Being completely unwilling to remake something that fits so obviously poorly is a deal breaker for me. How can that be the fit she intended? Maybe she’s just saying that to avoid admitting she doesn’t know how sizing works. I didn’t even watch her video & know I’m not interested. Makes me wish I still had time to sew.

5

cupandahalf please don't say that, your objections were spot on and you have every right to be respected as a person and as a consumer. 120lb Instagram models will pitch the mother of all fits if someone makes comments about their body type so why the heck shouldn't you, or I?!

She may be young and she may be hustling but she sent a paying customer packing when they gave her honest feedback and were unhappy with the fit--basically told them "you're wrong, I'm right, I know better than you what your body needs and what you should want in a bra." Love4Pollinators I think it's touching that you are so protective of this young business owner and I'm glad you had a better experience but it doesn't take away from other people's experiences. If this young lady wants to hustle successfully she will need to learn to open her mind and quit being defensive. Especially in the US market where "the customer is always right." We do not take kindly to being scolded or dismissed by a merchant.

3

This was her response to my messages: "I appreciate your long yet unecessary lecture. I appreciate your attention but I will mind my own business for I went to school for this, thanks. I don't want you to think that I am disregarding your information, but I made my patterns and know how the measuring for each size should be. I have not had many ladies with issued with my sizing, yet unfortunately those that do are those who complain openly on the internet. I truly do appreciate all this information."

I just copied and pasted what she said.

4

Wow, that's so unprofessional. I've considered ordering one of her bralettes, but the sizing issues and her attitude make me very apprehensive. I really hope she learns how to handle negative feedback and constructive criticism or she's going to continue to scare away potential customers.

I'm so confused about what measuring/sizing method she is using. Even the old +4 method doesn't say "unstretched band length must exactly match the wearer's underbust measurement" which seems to be how she's cutting bands!

2

omg, that’s an awful response. Maybe the people who haven’t had issues with her sizing are ones who don’t know how bras are supposed to fit!! Like wtf?? She sounds like a condescending brat in that reply, like a special snowflake who has not one iota of knowledge on how to run a business. Like going to school taught her anything - most of the world has not a clue how a bra should fit so it looks like whatever she was taught was wrong. Definitely lost any business I may have given her. I don’t care how firmly you believe in yourself, that’s not how you talk to an upset customer.

2

Oh, and even if she did go to school that doesn’t mean she knows your body or how you want a bra to fit better than YOU do!! Who gives a damn what school taught you - you make what the customer requests.

3

As a 24 year old from the U.S. who makes custom bras.... the video made me sick. Reading her replies made me sick. And it made me yet again VERY sad for the U.S. and it's lack of knowledge on bra fit and bra resources out there. So sorry she's been so unprofessional. :(
As someone who went to college for Apparel Design, and then learned a sh*t ton more from books and the internet, yes school methods of fitting is SO OUTDATED. I wish she would be a lot more open to learning and realize that there is no one good way to learn, and that we can ALWAYS be learning. It frustrated everyone when nutritionists and doctors used methods that are 30 years outdated from when they were in medical school, and they didn't bother to keep up with more modern information. Fitting is the same!! Everything is the same!!! We should always be open to learning!!!!!!!!
UGH
Sorry you had to deal with her, she is acting like an ignorant proud brat who doesn't realize she doesn't know what she's doing, and then says everyone else is wrong when she's been told in a constructive way that she doesn't know what she's doing and she could be doing things better.

1

Do you sell anywhere Slava-Zone ? I agree with you... learning something theoretically in school is one thing but if she'd fitted anyone in person she'd have seen that there are some key aspects to fit that change from one body to another. Even if she believes her system is gospel, just seeing the photos for some customers should be enough to realize there's an issue!

4

I actually ended up taking some time and went through her entire website...I looked at a good bit of her published promotional advertisements and runway shows...the models look so horribly fitted. One of the models looked as if her breasts were beneath the cups and most the cups were on the side of her body. I also watched her video that talked about the "history" and "science" of bras & breasts. I now believe that Sabrina is one of those women whom are firmly in the "tight fitting bras are bad for your breasts and makes you sag" camp. So she thinks her lingerie should JUST be wrapping around the body like and adornment instead of holding a supporting it. The bralettes I have seen that look decent, I believe the customer ordered power mesh for the band which resulted in a much better fitting garment. She seems to expect all breasts to be sitting very high up on the chest and be very, very wide rooted with zero inner fullness/closeness... I'm still just secretly hoping she at least takes a look at the buttload of links I sent her and is just too proud to admit the she needs to adapt, but does end up tweaking her patterns because she does have some lovely designs. It really is quite a shame that almost a quarter century has passed and the fashion schools have not updated their curriculums.

1

When I first reviewed this brand, I went over a long story about how I asked for my bralettes from her, so I'm not going over that again. The synopsis is that it was annoying, and slightly condescending, but the bralettes are very affordable.

What I will say is that when I asked her for edits on my second bra, she didn't hesitate to make them. She didn't argue that I wanted a whole band size smaller, or that I wanted it sewn a certain way so that the sides didn't gap. I agree that ordering from her initially was a pain, but at the time I needed a bralette and Dreams And Underthings is in indefinite hiatus, so I took the chance.

In my opinion, if you don't have a lot of money, but a lot of time to insist on your size, then try her out. Otherwise, go with someone else who will cost more, but understands proper bra fitting.

1

I just reread that and "go with someone else who will cost more" sounds a little strange. I should have said, "go with someone who MAY cost more". Salem's Scissors has sales pretty often, and the last bralette I bought from her was $23.47 including shipping. I haven't seen anyone else who makes custom bralettes for that low, but I could always be wrong.

I find it a bit funny how your country of origin changes your perspective of what is pricey or not. Her $30 bralettes are my entire daily pay, and I don't have a low-income job, given all of the circumstances (middle class, office job, Uni-educated, works in the capital city). But that is off-top.

2

MiskiDwie for sure! I can't imagine that price point would be attractive if you are shopping from Poland and can buy from Polish handmade shops without paying customs and shipment...

But another thing: handmade items made in USA imply that the maker is paying US prices for their materials, they have a US rent, US taxes etc. SO... I'm not sure how a price of $25-ish would cover her costs, with the cost of materials it probably leaves her with just $1-2 an hour (US minimum wage, which in many parts of the country is not even enough to feed and house one person without welfare, is $7.25 an hour). If she set her prices super low to attract clientele that also means she has the frustration of feeling she is barely covering costs and less willingness to accommodate customers.

2

Biiumers I can't imagine finding someone in the USA who makes quality bralettes for less money but I'm sure in other countries with lower cost of living they exist. Although, since US customers then have to pay for customs and shipping etc. it probably cancels out the difference. If you are in Europe maybe you can tap the Eastern European bra market!

2

MiskiDwie just curious, what is the average cost of a Polish bra for you in Poland in usd? Like mid-range, bought directly from the maker?

I know buying a bra that costs $60, when that is on average what I spend on a week's groceries, can be pretty painful, and that is about the cost of a U.K. bra in the US (low end if you pay shipping). So I understand wanting to get what you pay for.

wendybien I absolutely understand all of the economics, I just feel like it's kind of funny :)

cupandahalf uhhh... are we talking handmade, custom, or just a normal, store-bought bra? Average Polish bra from a brand that does wholesale (that would mean for example Gorsenia or Ava as opposed to, say Ewa Michalak) would be about $30 (but it is easy to buy one for $18-19), a custom one will be $36 (cheapest I found is Slovianka Lingerie ) and a handmade bralette will start at $40 (and that will usually mean a lace triangle in clothing sizes). To make things funny, a Panache bra in Poland costs roughly $50-60, and the newly opened Victoria's Secret has bras for about $55 :)

1

To put things in perspective - lowest legal paycheck you can get in Poland (that is a monthly payout) is $513 as of 2017, the average paycheck is $1285, and weekly groceries for two people would cost about $27.

3

Being as I am Dreams and Underthings... I feel so conflicted about the fact I have simply been unable to reopen for what’s turned into nearly an entire year and at this point am tossing around the idea of closing for good unfortunately. It’s been long enough i know I’ve lost the vast majority of my customer base. Then this shit happens and it makes me want to save allll the boobies. I DO understand sizing & seeing someone like this act this way when she clearly does not is infuriating. My stitching was not always perfect and I only offered one pattern but at least i grasped the sizing concept.

When i opened my Etsy shop i had a roommate, dirt cheap rent, no full time job and i was in classes only 2 days a week. My hiatus was intended to get me through the last semester of nursing school while I finally found work full time out of the home. That position has turned into a permanent, full time, Emergency Room, overnight RN job, I sleep during the day, the rest of the time I’m off I am a single mom to 2 kids one with special needs, I bought and am renovating a house, plus dealing with my own health problems. I never intended to abandon D&U... I also never thought life would get this hectic. Closing down would break my heart, but I don’t think I have much of a choice either. :(

1

lcl0706 I just wanted to say I have great respect for people working in the medical field, and as a future wife of an MD and a neuropsych trying to get her diploma I salute you so very much. Hopefully one day you will be able to restart your business!

MiskiDwie I apologize if you thought my long list of economic factors was meant to lecture you... that part of my post wasn't directed at you at all and was actually just the lead-in to my comment speculating about why she has this defensive and unhelpful attitude!

1

MiskiDwie thanks for that perspective. I've never thought bras were cheap, but U.K. Luxury bras must be unaffordable. What do really big women who need large band and large cup do in Poland, where you're gonna spend $65-$90 US on a bra (Elomi, Sculptresse, EM)?

1

wendybien I imagine myself recipient of these words. I imagine my daughter recipient of these words. And, I cry.

wendybien Short answer: I don't have a formal online presence where I sell, it's mostly word-of-mouth.

Long answer: (I ended up typing a freaking novel, which wasn't super relevant, so I'll post it on my own if you want to read it, haha)

By the way, did anyone else notice that the video says no longer available?? Anyone know the story behind that?

I told her that it came off very condescending, as if she knows more and better than everyone else. She may have saw these comments a lot, so removed it.
I didn't understand it anyway, the only time there was vanity sizing was in the 1940's when they decided to sell the bra bands at 32 and above because women wanted to be close to the "perfect" proportions (at that time was 36-26-36 I believe). With this labeling came the the Plus 4 method, as they could've labeled them in the measurement that the band fit, but they chose this way to make women feel better about themselves. Odd right, back then the "band" labeling was more important than the cup labeling and now-a-days the cup labeling seems more important to women and the band label doesn't matter at all. I would like more info on why they decided to start labeling clothes the way they do around the world, Italy makes the most sense "size 1, size 2, size 3, etc." The US used to do it this was....but everything sizing size in the U.S. is skewed horribly. Or if it were "A,B,C" sizes. But why label pants sizes 20-36, or 6-16? Small, medium, large, makes some sense...but at the same time every brands S,M,L is different. I believe the EU 20-36 is supposed to be either the waist measurement or the flat measurement of the waist/hip in centimeters. If so, that makes sense. Sorry,went off topic. Slava-Zone

Well, I was contacted by Sabrina and looks like she read your comments guys and was pretty much taken aback and sad to hear so much criticism. I advised her to come here and discuss the matter on Bratabase.

3

Love4Pollinators do you imagine yourself or your daughter the recipient of SalemScissors' words about customers who she suggests lie about their size, are foolishly falling for vanity sizing, or whose size she implies is just super crazy abnormal e.g. "40DDD"?

Sometimes criticism does not reflect people being unkind or unfair to the recipient--sometimes it reflects that people object to the fact that the recipient has earned criticism by being unkind or unfair. If I or my daughter earned this sort of criticism, sure, we might cry, but I would hope we'd cry because we were sorry we did something wrong, and then learn from it.