Neve is not a Cleo Jude (5846). Let's start with that. I have no way to remember exactly why Jude didn't fit me to have a comparison to be made, but it made me a guadboob and there was too much empty in the bottom even that I am a bottom-heavy. Neve comes somewhere in the middle of that and a more basic t-shirt bra.
Cups were wide yet really comfortable for my shallowness. Cups weren't too high in the armpit, and the strap position is quite wide (which is what I like, but many might not). Smooth, soft and light. The band could be even more narrow, but this is already nice and tight. Simple and effective. Oh, an the coral just got me.
It fits me alright, maybe sometimes (depending on my cycle) the cups are a bit too small. I would really like this bra, if the wires wouldn't hurt on my sternum after a few hours of wearing. One thing I really love are the very thin and softly padded cups, it's really really light padding which feels so good and soft on the skin! The straps are fully adjustable, which is also a pro for me, since I'm very petite and often straps are too long for me. I own this bra about 1,5 years now and also often wore it, it still didn't stretch out. The only thing is that the fabric gained a shade of grey meanwhile...
Have you tried to bend the tips of the wires slightly outwards? Depending on the ribcage shape wires can poke terrible, I have that issue all the time, but by just bending them a bit there will be less pressure and a lot less pain. :)
I've bended it so often, but it's still digging in :(
This is essentially the same as my review fot the 28F. I got both the 28F and the 28FF assuming I'd find my size and send the other back. The 28F fits best during my "small week" right after my period, and the FF right before and during my period week, so I ended up keeping them both.
What I like about this bra:
*I'm a bit "bottom heavy/teardrop shaped." Fuller cup styles always, always wrinkle at the top, but the balconette style is nice. *I like the colors. especially the orange-red color of the lace. https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" /> *The band is nice and tight, but this ...could be because this was the first bra I got in a band size that wasn't huge on me. *The cups are lightly padded, so they help to hide nipples without adding size.
What I don't like:
*There was definitely a breaking-in period. The bra was really stiff and scratchy the first couple of times I wore it, but is fine now. *I am already using the middle hooks, but I can't say whether it's because the band is stretching out already or if I'm just getting used to tighter bands and realizing I can comfortably fasten tighter than I have been. This may not be the bra's fault. I'll update when I've had it a little longer. *The wires come up too high in the middle, where they cut into my breasts just a little bit. I think if I could snip off the top 1/2 inch in the middle or move the wires down and around a bit so they're higher on the outside and lower in the middle it would be much more comfortable. EDIT: Yes, pushing the wires down in the middle a little, so the "rotate" up higher on the outer sides, helps a lot. *The seam down the middle of the cup is visible under tighter clothing. *I can usually get away with tightening the strap on my smaller side, but with this bra/size I need to pad my smaller side a little. This bra seems a little less accommodating to asymmetries than others I have had in the past. I don't really have this problem with the 28F, but I think it's because, even though the 28F is a little too small half the time, I'm still only a small 28FF in this bra the rest of the time, if that makes sense.
I've seen complaints elsewhere about the lace sticking up awkwardly above the cups, but I've not really had problems with that. I'll try to get pictures of some sort up soon, and will update about quality when I've had them a little longer. Read more 337 more words
Whether it's due to weight gain or migration, this bra fits comfortably all the time now, with the 28F being too small. It's softened up a bit after washing, but the decorative fabric overlaying the cups seems to have stretched a little bit or something. It seems to wrinkle a little bit, independently of the actual cups. It's not visible under clothing, however. Overall this is one of the best fitting bras I have right now.
This is my 4th, possibly 5th Blossom. One is a 28F that is too small but the other 28FFs & one 28G are some of my favorite bras.
This particular bra seems to fit me perfectly. I do not need to shorten the strap on my smaller side! It is comfortable in every aspect. The wires are perfect - no poking. The gore sits flat (maybe the slightest tilt after wearing it for a bit, but it’s not uncomfortable). The band is comfortably snug.
I’m not usually a fan of white bras, but the yellow accent is gorgeous. Unlike my other Blossoms, this one has a bow at the gore rather than a silver charm.
I have a full-on-top, center-full shape with soft tissue. This Cleo Blossom is close to the perfect bra for me.
I love this bra! I decided to purchase my 2nd Cleo Blossom just in case Cleo ever decides to discontinue it. I find myself reaching for my original Blossom (Lilac) frequently.
I have soft, asymmetrical breasts with upper fullness. This bra is comfortable and provides fabulous support.
Edit: I noticed someone upvoted my review so I took a look. Interestingly, I am wearing this beauty today. I added a few photos of me wearing it (just had to take my top off).
I ordered *another* Cleo Blossom 28FF from BOB today - the lemon yellow/white one. This is one of my favorite bras.
I am happy I finally got to try this Cleo Hettie Balconnet Bra https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" /> I had the oppertunty to get this one in a 28FF for a very fair price, so even though I had a feeling it would be an imperfect fit on me due to the Gore, So many people refer to this bra in my size range that I wanted to know how it fit me for reference and help assessing shape/fullness because my breast shape has changed with weight loss.
I got this bra in pink, I prefer a softer more dekicare pink personally, this brighter darker pink seems ...a bit more Youthful than my taste but that's okay. At a glance the construction of this bra reminds me of one of my prior Victoria Secret very sexy Balconett bras. That previous VS balconett was always top large in the band, but the cups were more ideal for me when I had more overall volume and upperfullness. Now that I have lost weight I have lost both size and volume all over and the upper part of my breast has softer and less firm tissue. (Depending what time of the month it is or weight changes, the area fluctuates some and may deflate or firm up a bit) I had a feeling this bra would have a bit too much upperfullness for me currently, which seemed to kind of ring true. I did somewhat like the stretch lace that made up the top quadrant of the cups. My nipples are spaced kind of far apart on my breasts, so I always have at least some centerfullness. I was very very center/innerfull before I lost weight, and possibly even as far as FOB FOT. The gore would gave been too tall and not close set enough for me before, but otherwise previously this bra would have been good before. Currently the gore is not the most ideal but I can tolerate it, but gore's can still push my projected soft tissue in weird directions in some instances. The slightly stretchy lace connects near the gore. Which is good because that's often where bras don't have enough rooms but I also feel like I need more support right there too than that material allows. I also think that this cup would jabe been preferable to me slightly shorter and closer to a half cup, which I show in one of my pictures. The cup width is decent, the wires pretty much narrow enough (I Am assymetrical and still trying to find my most ideal cup width between 5 and 6inches for both breasts. The band is firm enough but I may have worn it on the middle or tightest Hooks (it's a pre owned bra though so likely has stretched a little with wash and wear)
This is a great bra for many. The fit was imperfect, mostly with the gore but also with other subtle parts. Size wise is a close fit, I think the 28FF is good for me in the padded Cleos but I think 28F is best for similar unlined bras of this brand. (My 28E is still too small) This bra feels better quality than my past VS balconett bra that it reminded me of, but I will admit I liked the "look" of the black lacy VS balconett better. I don't always adore the youthful bright colors that Cleo bras can sport. This bra may not be close enough to wear but I don't regret buying it for diagnostic purposes. In may end up trading it on here in the near future. Read more 504 more words
Just following up on our conversation Re your comexim, this is a good example of a tall(ish) bra it might be worth pursuing in a different size: the Hettie is known to run WILDLY large in the cup and that's what seems to be happening here... the snug band is compensating a tad but it's still just visibly too big in the cup (notice there is extra fabric both below AND above the breast, , the diagonal cup seam sits above the natural apex of your own bust and the slight indent at that seam indicates slackness in the fabric, whereas a well-fitting cup should fit with a little bit of tension). I know it's discontinued but if you find one in 28F or 30E I think you'd find a lot of the fit issues would be resolved, including hopefully that uncomfortable gore.
wendybien I wanted to try a hettie, the cups are a bit too tall and the gore is taller than I prefer. I am very short statured/short in the torso so cup height can be a problem. Pictured it's on a tighter hook, but wearing it breifly today while looking over some other bras I wore it on one of the looser two. I do think I marked this as not fitting. If I were to look for another hettie I would probably look for a 30F depending. But due to the Gore and a few other little minor issues,+ I am not going too try to find another. My underbust messurments are usually 27-tight but not break the tape tight 28 comfy 29 loose. I Have some back issues that cause my posture to shift, and on top of it another health thing that's caused me to look a bit Puffy recently especially between my rib flare but I am usually comfortable with 28 or 30 bands with a few outliers. I just was glad to try a Hettie but know this one doesn't fit perfectly, but I did find a winner today from someone with similar shaping so I'm happy
I'm also probably not looking for more unlined cleos they are difficult with my assymmetry.
For whatever reason the gore tacks on one wire but not the other. I guess the separation is too much for me. I'm pretty close set. I do think the cups are too big for me as well. And as the other Cleo and Panache bras I've tried, the band is really tight and the wire is really stiff, making it uncomfortable on my ribs. Too bad because I like the way it looks.
This band is too tight for me even though I'm indeed a 28 band. The wires are so hard and stiff I can't tolerate them against my ribs. The gore tacks on one wire and the other is kind of pushed crookedly toward the other side. I guess I need an overlapping gore. But it pokes my sternum hard at the top of the gore and hurts while the lower part of the gore is pushed away from my chest. It does work really well for my FOT chest and it looks really good but is so uncomfortable.
Now I really thoroughly enjoy most of the Panache/Cleo bras I have, but this one is such a beautiful fit. It's scarlet red and the perfect tone of red to compliment my pale skin. I feel like a bombshell in this bra and it certainly looks the part! It's by far the best shape I've had from a Cleo bra probably ever, it's so rounded and nice and the fabric has such a beautiful pattern. This is a newer model with a slim bow in the middle like the Cleo Blake.
The quality is so good in this bra! I mean Panache has a high standard usually, but ...WOW. It just feels so good. It was bought brand new at Bravissimo in November 2017 and hasn't been worn much as it's on the smaller end for my cycle, so I will admit that I'm biased in how pristine it is. The band is the tightest I've had from Panache bras but its so comfy!
The white hooks on the red fabric is stylish and as i said the pattern is so cute. The embroidered bows at the top of the fabric edge go just along the top of my breast tissue and contain the fullness on top so well. The straps are a little thin for my taste, but that's common with Cleo bras. They're still cute though.
I tend to wear this bra under a floral blouse I have that already pays attention to cleavage. Read more 138 more words
This bra didn't work for me, because the gore was too wide, as it felt like the cups were really far apart on me. Also, I think the cups may have been lacking enough projection. I'm learning that stiff, molded cups are in general not as great as the fabric cups, for me, as they don't accommodate different shapes so well. Also, for an FF, the cup depth wasn't as deep as expected.
This bra is incredibly cute and the design is so alluring, but it doesn't fit me and it's so frustrating. They made the straps wider and the lace cuter and more sturdy, but the cup depth is much smaller than average wired bras in this size, in addition to a third vertical seam that makes it a 3-part cup.
DESIGN: The quality is as per usual from Panache excellent. No complaints there. Since receiving feedback on the Lyzy they widened the straps and added hooks so you can pull them together, if you have a short torso. The bralette is adorable, it looks so cute. The bright blue ...is very summery and there's a gold stripe through the band that's just such a nice touch. The lace pattern is more "tropical" in a sense - it's cuter. The band's material is both thicker and wider, and they added a square/rectangular piece of stretch mesh fabric next to the end of the cup. I like it, it makes the bra feel more sturdy, and it's a good improvement from the original Lyzy which has a triangular sloping fabric after the cups end.
FIT: Considering how comfy the original Cleo Lyzy was, the fact that I spill out of this feels like the end of the world. They added a third, vertical seam in the middle of the cup between the two other ones. This seam changes the shape and fit of the cup to mimic a 3-part wired cup more, which in theory is a clever move, but in reality doesn't work out. The Cleo Marcie is sort of famous for its 3-part cup design which gives that rounded and lifted look, and as a general rule, wired bras that have these seams and this style tend to fit me. So while the new seam was a clever idea, what ends up happening is that it lifts and pushes my boobs up and to the middle of the bralette. That makes me spill out, because the bralette doesn't have enough fabric/the right shape of fabric to hold the breasts in place in the middle.
EDIT AFTER MEASURING: it's not just the seam - the cup depth is much smaller than wired bras are on average in this size. It might not be the seam, but rather the immediate lack of depth. The cup depth of this one is 21cm, where a Cleo Marcie in 28FF is 25cm.
In the original Lyzy, the boobs droop a little compared to a wired bra because they rest in the bralette fabric like a hammock. In this Lyzy, I thought the shape was the only problem - but after measuring it turns out that the cup is indeed too small. I tried this in 28G as well and it was still too small, the cup depth increased by 2 cm but still wasn't enough for my boobs. If i shake my shoulders, my breasts fall out of the cups.
Considering the past few new bras I've tried haven't fit me (Freya Expression Plunge, Cleo Asher), it feels even more frustrating that this doesn't fit. Finally they make a bralette for bigger busts and when they change the design to be objectively cuter, it. doesn't. fit. https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" /> I can only hope they continue making the regular Cleo Lyzy, or consider making the cups bigger or changing the seams. I'm wondering if I should send a mail to Panache and explain the difference between the two, or just leave a review on Brastop. Read more 483 more words
Thank you for leaving such a detailed review. It is interesting to read about the differences in aesthetics AND in function. Pity it did not work for you.
Thank you for such a great review. I tried this bralette in store and I must confess I hated it because there was no lift and my breasts felt droopy. I had no idea they had tweaked the design, I will have to try it again. Hopefully they will still make the older version which you like. I wonder if you have tried the a Cosabella Sweetie in the new hook and eye model? It definitely reminded me of this one when I tried it (breasts felt droopy like sitting on a hammock like you mention). I tried the pull-over model XS - Cosabella » Never Say Never Curvy Sweetie Soft Bra (NEVER1 and this one S - Cosabella » Never Say Never Curvy Sweetie Soft Bra (NEVER13 but the newer model with the adjustable band might be very similar to this one.
Thank you for such a great review. I tried this bralette in store and I must confess I hated it because there was no lift and my breasts felt droopy. I had no idea they had tweaked the design, I will have to try it again. Hopefully they will still make the older version which you like. I wonder if you have tried the a Cosabella Sweetie in the new hook and eye model? It definitely reminded me of this one when I tried it (breasts felt droopy like sitting on a hammock like you mention). I tried the pull-over model XS - Cosabella » Never Say Never Curvy Sweetie Soft Bra (NEVER1 and this one S - Cosabella » Never Say Never Curvy Sweetie Soft Bra (NEVER13 but the newer model with the adjustable band might be very similar to this one.
AllyBra Glad you enjoyed it! The design is ridiculously cute, but it didn't fit. It turns out after measuring that the cups are too small for me. The cup depth is smaller than average for these sizes, and so it doesn't fit.
braluv I definitely understand that! It's not a sexy bra in my opinion, it doesn't look as WOW as the majority of my other bras. I'd recommend you try the Vibe though because it doesn't seem like it has the same fit - however I can't confirm this since the two Vibe bralettes I ordered didn't fit because the cups were too small. In the right size it might be more hammock-y. Either way, I'd recommend you order it in a size above your usual one - if you wear 30F go for 30FF.
I haven't heard of Cosabella, but that bralette looks like it could fit me. S/M/L sizing rarely/never works for me though because my boobs are big compared to my ribcage, 28G doesn't usually fit into a S bralette and M rides up :P
corvidsandtea Thank you for the info on the Vibe. I will keep the cup sizes in mind when I try it. :) The Cosabella bralettes have a Petite Curvy size that's supposed to fit 28-30 DD-F and the Extra Small Curvy size fits 30-32 DD-F, so not quite 28G size unfortunately. All of the styles with the "Curvy" in the name have these bigger cups.
My shape is soft, narrow and short rooted, and low set.
This bra has been reviewed a thousand times and is discontinued, but I'm reviewing it and posting to the front page anyways. I once bought a used 30FF, which fit well but the lace was floppy (as I know is normal in this bra even when it fits), but the bra was in poor shape when I received it and the band was stretched out. Since my ribcage recently shrunk, I thought I'd give it a go in 28FF, and I got a good deal on this one through Amazon.ca (check out the ridiculous box/packaging picture though). This ...bra fits except I get some bubbling. When I move the lace out of the way it's more obvious. I don't mind a bit of bubbling, as I'd rather bubble than gape or have floppy lace. I marked it as fitting for that reason. There's not much room for centre fullness in this bra. I have less centre fullness now that my boobs shrunk, but even on me I can see that there's not quite enough room. The shape is nice and round, and it's actually fairly narrow for a UK bra. The straps are thin and wimpy, but the band is true to size for a 28. Finally, I feel supported! It was definitely time to try some 28" bands! Wings are too short for me. Aesthetically this bra does nothing for me. It's just a boring beige bra (sorry if you love it, but it's just one girl's opinion), but it offers a nice shape and good comfort, so it'll get well used I'm sure. Plus... beige bras are very practical. Yes... this is a very practical bra. Read more 180 more words
This looks good and is a great nude shade for you! I’ve always been interested to try it because I love my Cleo Hettie and the round shape Cleo is supposed to give, but I see you’re right it does have low wings (which I don’t like). I would also call myself short, soft and low (but average width not super narrow) and I recently fell in love with Freya 4-part half cups like Lauren - just curious have you tried those and what did you think? Hettie and Lucy have worked for me. I have a Piper im on the fence about, and soon to try an Atlanta...
Thanks Jolie0216 . I used to have a cleo Hettie and did like it also (I think it was too big or something... can't remember but I got rid of it), but the Lucy didn't work great for me. I'll have to check out Lauren. I've looked at the Piper and would probably try it if it was on sale. I have read on some reviews that it causes a lot of underarm/armpit chaffing? Is that true? And yeah, that new Atlanta is super cute!
Do you find it to be projected enough at the wire, or is it a bit shallow? The packaging is ridiculous. How are we supposed to fight for the environment and reduce our footprint when packing is excessive?
Calluna hhmm. I don't know. I'd say averagely projected. I wouldn't call it super projected, but it's not quite shallow either. And I know, that box is bigger in person than it looks in the picture too.
You don’t have to be an environmental activist to observe that packaging is excessive for a single bra! And it is...usually if I purchase a single bra from somewhere they send in an envelope style package not a box. Why the vitriol?
Calluna okay so I've worn it for a half day, and it slid down out of my IMF, so I'm thinking it must be at least moderately shallow at the underwire.
Thanks Wilderness1 ! I’ve thought about this one before just for a functional bra but always wondered if it would work.
josepha I didn’t ask for your opinion. Go troll elsewhere.
So, either the troll's comments were removed or they have me blocked lol! Wilderness1 despite their habit of calling all their bras of this period "balconnets" Cleo didn't cut them low--so contrary to what you might expect, this is a bra that I'd expect to be almost full-coverage on a person with shorter boobs, not almost-demi-cup coverage like what you are getting. I suspect that is why it's not staying put--it's a just a little too small and your boobs are able to climb out/push it down as you move during the day. I think a 28G would fit without bubbling and the wing height would be more to your liking.
Wilderness1 As for the Piper, I’ve worn it all day today and can say there is no underarm chafing. But I’m low set so I’ve never really met a wire too tall! In fact I wish they were higher in almost every bra I have! Piper fits well - when I tried it on I thought the cups a bit small, but maybe I’ve lost weight since then or was on a hormone high tide. Boobs they’re a mystery lol! So I’m definitely keeping. My Atlanta in 30F though was def small in the cup, quadding in both sides. Trying a 30FF tomorrow since I really liked the look a lot, nice low gore!! Usually I’m a pretty solid 30F in Cleo so maybe the Atlanta just runs small....I’ll measure it before I send it back! Piper seems to be cheap on Amazon right now so that’s the only reason I decided to give it a go...but I think 30F will be just fine with it.
wendybien they must have been removed because I don't see the comments either now. Yeah, I wondered if a 28G would fit better. I used to have the 30FF and I thought it fit a bit small in the cup. Maybe if I find a good price I'll give it a go in a bigger size. Jolie0216 I might have to finally give the piper a go then. I'm low set too never have a problem with wings coming up too high. I like the looks of it (though I wish it wasn't a longline, as I don't tent to reach for them as often). Thanks for the recommendations. I'll be interested to see what your Atlanta looks like. Hope it fits you!
Troll account is gone.
Wilderness1 yep I imagine the reason the sister size of 30FF appeared to be (more) OK is that the band was really loose. Now that you've shrunk in boob volume that cup volume is probably just about right. Jolie0216 I am not sure when the Atlanta came out but if it's newer the wings might be fine, if it's older I don't know. All the older Cleos tended to have quite low wings generally because they were cut to appeal to very young full-bust consumers who were assumed to be super paranoid about "matronly" bra construction features (high wings, traditional full cups design, wider straps, 3 or more hooks on the band, etc.) Piper uses sheer materials and colorway to look youthful but it has features that are reminiscent of the main line Panache (Superbra), which embraces that "full support" look. Wing height is no exception--It is hard to compare the Piper measurements to the stats for Cleo oldies since it is a longline, but if you examine the curve that goes from strap attachment to outer wire tip you'll see the difference.
Thanks Perpetua for sending me this! I still like the Marcie, though it never looks as good on me as it does on models. The band is fine on this one too. My nude 28F Marcie is way small for me, so I had hoped this would be a better fit, but it still gives me in-cup quadding and is too small. This bra being too small in the cup is what led me to my current line of thinking, that I'm like an FF and 1/2 cup. The in-cup quadding is also because I have very soft tissue, but I don't think my soft tissue is the only reason this doesn't fit. I guess next up is trying a 28G...I've heard that the nude version of the Marcie fits a little bigger than other colors, so maybe a 28G in another (slightly smaller) color could be the perfect in-between? In any case, I'm gonna leave this bra alone while I wait on my 3 Ewa bras and altered 60K Comexim Ingrid to come in the mail.
I am thinking that this may simply be a shape mis-match more than anything - i.e. there isn't enough room right at the apex in this bra, so you're getting the in-cup quadding while fitting well at the bottom and having ample space at the top of the cup. Of all the brands I have tried (Ewa Michalak, Comexim, Gaia, Kinga, Gorsenia, Ava etc), Kris Lines consistently have the most space at the apex. They also make 60 bands ;)
AprilGoulding hmm, that actually sounds like a much more accurate idea than mine. Thanks for the recommendation!
It looks like the cup width is too wide with the straps also too wide for your frame. You'll have to check if the band placement is a smidgen too low - may be pushed down by breast tissue not having enough space at the wire. I am with AprilGoulding in that I do not think that a different size will help you out with this bra model. Time to move on to a better fit for you!
Hi biflexual I am so sorry you weren't comfortable in this bra especially since you really wanted it to work! Visually based on pics it actually appears ok, or even generous in volume, although perhaps not ideal proportions for you (wider and shallower than your natural shape)--but perhaps there are further sensory or visible clues that make you think it's too small in one dimension or another? I am not sure this experience with Marcie should lead you towards an even bigger cup for other bras though--first, because there are many shape-mismatch bras where sizing up isn't going to fix anything anyway, and second, because in-cup quadding is not equivalent to quadding at the real cup edge, and is only rarely an indication that the cup itself is too small (it's actually more often another issue, like overtight straps, QC issue with that bra, bra being over-engineered for that size range, severe shape mismatch such that the person has sized up into a cup volume that is much too BIG, etc. ) My impression from your review is that you shouldn't worry too much about your size in this particular bra since a painful gore is usually a dealbreaker, but that often just means that the hard Panache/Cleo wires don't agree with you (I personally am not a fan for this reason, I have a very sensitive ribcage).
wendybien the reason my experience with Marcie leads me to consider a bigger cup is because when I take it off, I have red marks indicating that it’s been digging in a lot at the top of the cup and at the apex, especially on my bigger side — also because when I scoop and swoop while leaning over, I spill out a bit. Thanks for your help!
In cup quadding is most definitely common in seamed bras with soft tissue and not always a size issue. In addition, Marcie has been known to have a weird bubble at the seam in some productions which makes it easier for in cup quadding to happen. I’m a little surprised that you got 9.3” depth, as my two 30Fs are .5” deeper. I wonder how one of my Marcied would fit you.
*marcies
Calluna to be entirely honest, it could just be that I have bony/skinny knees, so it's really difficult to properly use the measuring tip of using my knee when measuring softcup bras because I don't have enough knee to fill the cup! Lol
biflexual too funny!! Lol My boobies ate bigger than my knees also!! I have often used one of my kid's mini soccer balls...it works perfectly. :P
I put mine over my knee and tug to full resistance with the tape measure between the bra and my knee, holding onto one side while letting the other slide as I pull. My knees are small and bony as well, but it works to get the max figure. To get a resting (unstretched or min) measurement, I just hover the bra between my knees by the wires with the cup hanging down, then put the tape measure in the cup. My theory with cup measurement is same as with bands-they are very subjective to the method of member and how agressive they are on any given measuring day. 😄
I measure on me and over my knee both inside and out and go with the average or 2 out of 3. I also do a flex/pull.
I am so jealous of everyone's delicate knees... but if any of you want to borrow my chubby ones to more easily measure a bra cup, you are very welcome to drop by ;-) biflexual it sounds like perhaps you've been relying on some misleading indicators for cup fit? Skin marks aren't actually a sign of an undersized cup. They often aren't even a sign of band size problems (unless they feel tender, or turn out to be bruises/abrasions). Lots of people get marks occasionally--or routinely!--from all kinds of elements: the seams, the straps, the boning, the cup edges, the wires etc. I sometimes even get the pattern from laces or embroidered elements temporarily stenciled on me ;-)
Overflow/quadding/spillage indicates a cup being too small/shallow BUT ONLY when you are upright --not leaning over. It is totally normal to spill out a bit, or even more than a bit depending on the bra design, when we bend over in a well-fitting cup! This is simply a matter of containment, not size per se. A sports bra or full-coverage design that's painfully small but still covers every inch of boob tissue can prevent spillage just by virtue of that coverage. But lower-cut cups that are well-sized, as well as loose, oversized or too-open cups, can allow variable degrees of overspill when we lean over. All this means really is that some portion of the upper boob tissue isn't inside the cup and can therefore move/hang more freely.
If you have a preference for super firm, secure containment, I am sure you can find that but typically it does require a lot of coverage. Cleo is not great in that regard--I can only think of 1 of hundreds of Cleo designs that is intended to contain all one's tissue, and it uses a decorative overlay to do so. The Cleo Piper does have somewhat more coverage than a lot of the others, similar to main line Panache full-cup styles.
wendybien oh no it’s not that I prefer super full coverage it’s just that I apparently have zero idea what a too-small cup looks like 😂
biflexual lol ok! well it happens for a lot of people so don't feel bad! I just mentioned that possibility cos didn't wanna make you feel like it was weird or unfashionable if you DID want something extra secure... some people are very particular about that! But being open to various different cuts will definitely make it easier to find a great fit, so it's good you're flexible on the amount of coverage ;-)
Do you have pics uploaded for most of your bras on this site or only a few?
wendybien I have pics uploaded for all the bras I pretty much ever wear. I have a random Intimissimi 32D, a couple Victoria’s Secret 32DDDs, a very random 32DD I got from Nordstrom Rack, and an Aerie 32DDD that I never wear that I didn’t upload pics of. I may upload more info for one of the VS bras because I just altered the band so that it actually fits pretty well, but I’m nervous to upload any of my VS bras because the tags are cut off so I can’t be absolutely positive of the styles.
biflexual oh wow ok well that ought to provide plenty of data. Would it help for us to take a look to help you troubleshoot stuff? I can see you joined just a few months ago, but I wasn't on Bratabase much recently... so I basically just blundered into this post at random but I suppose I don't really know the context. Are you just another one of us bra obsessives who has plenty of bras that feel comfortable and look good, and you're just wanting to venture further and try more styles for fun and bra science (and perhaps refine your cup fit assessment, also for science)? Or are you still really dealing with ongoing fit concerns meaning a lot of your bras aren't ideally comfy, or that you are still trying to find the right fit in certain styles?
wendybien definitely the second one! Here's my backstory...sorry this is probably boring...I am pretty young (still in my teens), and I went through basically what most people go through with bras growing up. In 7th grade I wore 32Bs, in 8th grade 32Cs, then I got on the pill and by 10th grade I was wearing 32DDDs. A year or so later, I decided to completely give up on wearing "real" (underwire) bras because they just felt really restrictive and uncomfortable. Cue ~8 months of wearing either no bra or poorly-fitting bralettes that I always had to safety-pin like 4 inches of in the back because they were way too big in the band -- think Urban Outfitters bralettes, so stuff designed for much smaller-busted people than I.
Then a couple months ago I made a reddit account, and from there it didn't take long until I found r/abrathatfits. Since then it's been trial and error, overwhelmingly error, working on finding my fit. I prefer increasingly snug bands -- I started out trying 30F's (Freya Patsy half cup, Bravissimo Esther which fit me just as badly as it later did in a 28FF, Freya Deco etc.), but I was still fastening them on the tightest hook.
Now I know somewhat more about my shape and am foraying into Polish bras, but I still only own one single bra that fits just about perfectly (28FF Cleo Breeze), and one that fits fairly well (28F Freya Deco). All my others have more serious fit issues. So to finally answer your question, I'm definitely still more in the "early stages" of bra fitting and trying to build up my collection of ones that fit. I also still have a lot to learn about bras and fitting, though I'm already working on helping out one of my friends (who is very petite and very busty) and my mother (very wide-rooted) with bras!
Oh wow ok so basically you are new to most of it but since you're very young your current size is quite literally a recent development! OK, well that explains why some things might still be a bit confusing. Most of us here have just had more years to get used to all this.
Can I just ask a few initial things? When people have ongoing fit issues despite trying many bras in many sizes it often means they aren't too sure which direction to pursue when troubleshooting. I'm hoping maybe it'll help to define some rough categories for your recent trial and error experiences. I'm going to focus a lot of these questions on comfort --our perception of what feels good/bad tends to be more consistent than our idea of what looks right, so it can offer more reliable clues about general trends.
1/ comfortable bras: when you say only one or two bras fit, I imagine your definition of fit is based on a mix of criteria or perhaps you are just relying on Bratabase's criteria--but does that also mean those 1-2 bras are the only ones that are even comfortable? If not, which of your bras are currently completely comfortable (even if the comfortable ones don't happen to be the ones you consider a truly correct fit)? Comfortable = no pain, no unpleasant or distracting sensations; you can easily forget the bra is there; feels good all day long, say 8am-10pm.
2/ Most uncomfortable bras- going to the other end of the spectrum, which were the most uncomfortable and why (including if some were only uncomfortable in a given size--what was the problem)? Are there any fit problems affecting comfort/wearability that seem to recur in every single bra, or in many of them?
3/ Preferences--you mentioned you have been choosing smaller and smaller bands as you tried more bras--is this comfort-related (I.e. the larger ones bands were uncomfortable for one or more reasons)? Or is there no huge difference in comfort per se? Perhaps you generally feel most 28/60 bands seem to at least bring you closer to technically good fit, for example by reducing cup gaping, increasing uplift and so on?
wendybien first, thanks so much for taking the time to help me out! You're very generous. 1. Comfortable bras -- my most comfortable bra is, I believe, actually the 28FF Cleo Breeze longline that's also my best fit. The only discomfort I get with that is annoyance at sometimes having to tug the longline down. I actually find a tight band more comfortable, because I notice the looseness of looser bands and it bothers me throughout the day. So other than the band, my 65G Corin Virginia (I believe this one is my most comfortable behind my Cleo Breeze), 70E Corin Jacqueline, and 30F Nikol Djumon Viktoria are decently comfortable. But like I said, a loose band is noticeable enough to me to make an otherwise-comfortable bra uncomfortable. 2. Uncomfortable bras -- hands down my 60J Comexim Basic Plunge. The cups dig into my armpits so badly and the lace edging (not sure what it's really called) is scratchy. It also digs into the top of my breast. My 28F Freya Deco is also pretty uncomfortable because it feels very stiff and doesn't really move with me. Other than those two, the rest of my uncomfortable bras are uncomfortable because they're too small (60HH Comexim Ingrid, 30FF pink Parfait Charlotte, 28F Cleo Marcie are all too small, 30FF brown Parfait Charlotte too big, and both the Parfait bras also feel similarly stiff to my Freya Deco). I had and returned a 30F Bravissimo Esther, which was comfortable but I was fastening it on the tightest hook, so I got a 28FF. Both bras are too wide and shallow for me, but I didn't notice the fit issues in the 30F because I wasn't looking for the right things. 3. Preferences -- Yep, you got it! Loose bands make bras feel much less comfortable because I'm constantly noticing the looseness throughout the day, and they make bras feel far less secure. I also do think 28 bands bring me closer to a good fit, since I had a 65HH Comexim Ingrid at one point and it gapped badly on top but fastening it tighter helped alleviate the gapping somewhat.
I'm sorry it took me so long to come back biflexual ! Darn work getting in the way of my bra discussions lol. So, based on your responses and what I saw in the photos/measurements for the bras you listed as good, bad, etc. I would suggest that you work on defining your exact ideal band length more precisely, IN INCHES, rather than relying on the size listed. Newbies tend to DRASTICALLY underestimate the way band length inconsistency changes cup fit and overall comfort--they've had a lifetime of too-loose bands to see how THAT screwed things up, but too-small or too-tight bands can be very deceptive as well and can be masked by other fit problems in ways that make them hard to recognize. So you notice "ok THIS bra doesn't work" but it will lead you in the wrong direction when you decide what to try next. I think a lot of your cup fit struggles are due to the fact you are trying on many different cup sizes and shapes, but since even restricting yourself to 28/60 bands will allow a lot of poorly-sized bands into the mix, this has still caused you to be unwittingly comparing apples and oranges a lot of the time-- due to this band length inconsistency that changes cup fit and overall comfort. You also have 2 band fit challenges to contend with in your size range: 1/ for bras at both extremes (smallest and largest bands) of the bra sizing matrix, there is a ridiculous level of inconsistency in how long bands are cut and how much give the materials have. So, in this regard you have to NOT trust the manufacturer or the label too much and look at reviews and measurements (or indeed your own measurements + troubleshooting approaches listed below). 2/ People with lean torsos and very little body fat on their ribcage are apt to suffer much higher levels of discomfort from poor band fit (too loose and you get the friction and wires roaming around stabbing you; too tight and you get to experience the joys of just 2mm of flesh being crushed between the hard wires/band elastic, and your equally hard ribs). And because your ribcage itself cannot compress, it's unforgiving to poorly-sized bands: if the band is not perfectly suited to you, your body can't squish down to adapt to it.
Obviously like most people you have more experience with loose bands so that is one issue you have been able to identify on your own--"cup OK, band too big" is a situation I think you can easily recognize, as is "cup too big/band too big." However there are several other configurations that newbies often have trouble spotting and that can lead to some confusion about which of the two (band vs. cup) is adequate, or neither. Due to the fact that many other posters also don't really know how to spot this, these errors often also get reinforced by other people's feedback.
The frequently-misinterpreted scenarios are:
* band is actually OK but cup is too big > this will feel loose, so wearer wrongly assumes the band itself is loose/runs loose (then gives up on this bra or else sizes down in band+cup or band only, resulting in an uncomfortable fit). To identify this problem: compare measurements with well-fitting bands/try bra on upside-down (cups pointing down). If you've been thinking "oh this band is huge!" yet it stays put when upside-down even without boobs in the cups... the band is not the problem! Keep that band size and reassess why the cups are not working.
* band is too small, or too tight (lack of stretch) but cup is too big > this is the most treacherous one... the wearer often thinks initially that the fit is good/acceptable, because the overtight band could be distorting the wires and cups enough to eliminate most of the cup gaping and creasing that would otherwise be visible. The wearer may even remove the tags and celebrate finding ABTF. However, over time, she starts to notice issues such as straps and cup corners/edges killing her armpits, apex/center seam of cups being much further out to the side than the natural apex of her breasts (sometimes accompanied by east-west orientation of cups themselves), pain or pressure at the gore or the base of the underwires, pain on sides, band creeping downwards on the body such that she needs to tighten the straps quite vigorously to keep it up where it belongs, etc. To identify: again, refer to measurements, and/or try on upside down. Or put on an extender and see what happens with the cup.
* band too small/tight, cup is a good volume and shape > wearer sees quadding and gore failing to tack and concludes the cup is too small (even though hmm, weird, on paper it seemed perfect cos the depth measurement and projection were consistent with what she thought she'd needed). What's really happening is that the excessive band tension is deforming the cup, making it fit much shallower all over and cut in at the edges. Using an extender can help determine whether a longer band would actually allow the cup to fit well, or not (for instance if you add 2" with the extender and the underwires are now cutting into your breast tissue on your sides, then the cup is definitely too small and/or narrow regardless of what's going on with the band).
And a word on measuring band length for BtB: so many people have trouble doing this...!
First, measure the unstretched band BEFORE you have put it on. If it's been worn at all beforehand even yesterday, ideally, wash it first before measuring. The residue of skin particles and skin oils on a worn bra works its way into the mesh structure and prevents the material from snapping back to its default starter length. A bra you have just taken off your body is even more stretched out since it is warm and still recovering from the tension of being worn. so that is even further away from an accurate "point zero" length.
For the stretched measurement: the idea is to pull gently, only up to the point where you start to feel a little bit more resistance. When you can feel any increase in the band's pullback, stop--this is the stretched length to record. An elasticated garment can be manually stretched quite a lot more than the tolerable degree of stretch that it would offer on the body, so the idea is NOT to stretch it way the F out to the next state :-D
So, this isn't necessarily something YOU have been doing wrong--I haven't checked--but it's something you should look out for in other user measurements. If you see entries where they are measuring new bras in pristine condition and recorded measurements of 22" unstretched, 31" stretched, either that brand sold them a bra with some seriously rotten quality elastic or they measured while pulling WAY harder than what would give an idea of how the band will perform when worn on the body. When in doubt go see the user's other entries--folks tend to be consistent in how they do things. Likewise you'll see the same overly timid band-measurer entering everything as 26" unstretched and 27.5" stretched!
wendybien wins the prize again for most bra-ducational comments. Made my day again. The best. 🙏🤓👙
Thank you AprilGoulding you are too kind! biflexual you are very welcome, I hope that gives you some pointers for reexamining the bras you currently own and thinking what other sizes or shapes could work and be truly comfortable. Feel free to send a personal message if I miss a tag in a later thread or bra review!
I think this bra would fit pretty well in a 28G. It's not the softest bra ever, but otherwise pretty comfy. It seems well suited to short FOB breasts. The wires are a bit too wide, though. I also get lots of bounce and jiggle. I like that it's pretty, the band is snug, and that it feels light.
Looks great. Maybe it just feels jiggly because the cups are too small and your tissue gets squeezed out on top?
I creeped your profile and saw that you also have 28E Cleo Kali. Did your measurements change a lot or does it still fit? I'm just curious because I heard that this one is similar to the Kali and it looks like 3 sizes smaller.
Thanks, aboobaccount. Yes, my measurements have changed a lot. I was a bit underweight then (5'5" and 105 pounds). I am about 20 or so pounds heavier now, which is 5-10 pounds more than I would like to be.
The G would probably fit you perfectly! And I agree with aboobacount that if you go up a cup the jiggly feeling would probably go away.
I totally feel you on the weight thing (i've had alot of weight issues in my past, but I don't want to go on about that!!), but you look beautiful. I am 5 feet even and about 110 pounds and wish I looked any where near as gorgeous as you. ^.^
Thanks, LeProfessor- you are so kind. :) I will keep an eye out for the 28G to come on sale on Amazon. And you look amazing!!
I’m contemplating a 28G in this myself right now. I saw Amazon had the white one on for $30-something the other night. Might still be available for sale.
Very nice and comfortable everyday bra. I have it in black and nude. Both have not very snug band and quite shallow cups. The gore is not perfect for close set boobs. And it shows under clothing. I've altered the bra. I've shorten the gore ( just pushed the wires in the channels to free about 2 cm and cut the extra fabric in the gore part, then sewed it back). And also I've shorten the straps ( this is very usual for me, as the straps are almost always not short enough ). Now it is perfect!
I really like this bra and find it comfy. The back is very firm but doesnt dig in. I think it is quite shallow (althogh i am not good assessing such things). I get quite a bit of quad boob at the front and my breasts get squished together but i find it comfortable and very supportive anyway. Actually i know this probably sounds crazy but all my bras that i find most comfortable and supportive sit like this ie i seem to find them most comfortable when they are a fraction small and i get a bit of quad boob. For example the comexim and ewa bras are the same. I dont know if i am the only one who finds this? I sort of feel guilty admitting this as this site is to help find a true fit, and yet i am admitting that what i find most comfortable and most supportive are not perfect fits https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" />
Sincerely, I prefer the bra world when I was wearing a bra several sizes too small. A non-tacking gore is significantly more comfortable than the tacking gores that sit upon 1/3 of each breast because they don't have enough center projection. But, we each can tolerate some things and reject others. I'm just thankful you have comfortable bras :-)
Thanks for your comment. I am pleased i am not the only one :) I think the most important thing is just to find something that is comfortable. And what is comfortable for one person may not be comfortable for someone else.
Comfort is a key feature of fit. If you are more comfortable physically in bras that fit this way, it is because there is some other fit characteristic of the non-quadding bras that is NOT working, i.e. they're not actually a good fit. Can you describe in more detail what part of the bra or what aspect of fit is more comfortable in your slightly quadding bras?
Thanks wendybien. Well, i guess that the bras that fit this way i can put on and feel comfortable and not even think about or notice my bra all day! I am not playing with it, fidling with it, adjusting it. Wondering if i should make the straps tighter or looser to make it feel better or maybe put it on a tighter hook or looser or.... Ie this is what happens in other bras. But in Jude and other bras that fit like this, no :)
I guess they feel firm and my breasts feel supported. If i am running late for work and have to run a bit in these bras i could :) but in others, no....
I dont have a photo in jude. But here is a photo of me in another bra that fits similar (maybe in jude the quadding is worse, but this photo will still help illustrate). This is a 30e marks and spencer (although as it is a 30 i usually wear it on the middle or tightest hook) http://bra.pe/XTo7/pictures/ http:/bra.pe/XTo7/
And another example http:/bra.pe/XCDZ/
This one is a bit old, but shows the same thing. Infact i almost feel like the more quadding the more supportive and comfortable !!! A debenhams bra in 28ff http:/bra.pe/Xbh/
I then tried the larger size and found it uncomfortable and not as supportive http:/bra.pe/XBhy/
This one is a bit different because it isnt such a plunge shape but still there is quad boob. I didnt keep it but i remember it feeling really supportive so i keep thinking maybe i might buy it afterall http:/bra.pe/XVQ1/
And a previous experience with curvy kate (although this was a few years ago so i dont know if it would fit exactly the same now. And i think i heard that the fit/shape has recently been changed slightly??)
http:/bra.ra.pe/Xjm
I remember in the 28ff i thought it was supportive but too small. But then the 28g i no longer liked the shape, the look, wasnt as supportive http:/bra.pe/Xjn/
I recently tried some more curvy kate as i had heard that the shape of these were different and it seemed like it might actually fit.....but no. The quadding was fine but not as comfortable. You can see there is some wrinkling in the cup. This was a pretty good fit for me. Much closer to fitting than i usually find. But i know if i had kept it i would have been constantly adjusting the straps and fiddling to try and make it feel better. http:/bra.pe/XVQv/
Sorry for writing so much! But it would be amazing to figure out what could actually fit and be comfortable! As over the years i have bought and returned so many bras. Plus the draw full of bras i kept because it cost more to return than it was worth or i thought it almost fit or i liked it so i kept it even though it didnt fit etc etc. So a draw full of bras i dont like and dont wear. I am sure lots of people on this site relate to this ;)
ok so the feeling you describe is how a properly fitting bra should feel, so if your non-quadding bras do NOT provide that feeling of being secure and supported then they do not actually fit! Perhaps you've been wearing cups that are too large in overall volume? This can happen when someone has roots that are wider or taller than average, or is more projected than average, leading her to size up to a larger than optimal size to fit that one breast dimension that's greater than what bra cup designers had in mind. Other possible causes could be choosing cups that are too low-coverage to firmly support the entire breast mass, or a band that is too stretchy, too large or too thin.
I really like the burgundy color of this bra and it gives a nice round shape. The wires does however poke a bit so it's not the most comfortable bra I own.
I had wanted to try the Marcie after reading about it so much, and when I saw the images of the AW15 burgundy colorway, I knew I needed it! Burgundy is pretty much my favorite color, but I didn’t yet have such colored bra. In natural lighting, it seems more like a dark purple to me, but it’s beautiful anyway. I also love the cute and unique lace pattern. Lookswise, it’s a killer! Also, the shape is amazingly rounded for an unlined bra. I rarely actually wear unpadded bras because a) I’m shy about nipples and b) the shape I get is often a bit droopy. Marcie might ...get much more use, if it wasn’t for the comfort issues. The band seemed perfectly tight enough, but now I just realized that it had ridden up a bit after a long day (then again I’m 26"). Wires are quite wide, and for me there is about 1 cm extra space towards the armpits. For me the wires don’t really cause much discomfort at the sides, but they do press into my ribs under the bust. There is something very strange happening with the center gore: it sort of tacks (or one wire does), but it is constantly twisted towards the other breast. I guess this is because of my close-set breasts; I often have problems with high gores. At least this way the wires don’t completely sit on my breast tissue (as in Cleo Juna), but the gore is still uncomfortable and digs into my sternum too hard. There is also some wrinkling/gaping in the left cup, towards which the gore is turned (which is my bigger breast actually). The right cup seems to fit fine. I have some fullness at the top, and this is the only unpadded bra I have tried that doesn’t close in at the top too much. I think that Marcie might fit me be better in 28F since the gore would be lower, wires narrower, and the open cups would still probably still accommodate me. However, I’m starting to think I’ll just have to give up on Cleo balconettes, as lovely as they are otherwise – I just cannot deal with the wires. https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" /> Read more 266 more words
FWIW, it looks beautiful on you :) It's a gorgeous color. This is how the Cleo Lily tacks on me. Panache wires are very firm unfortunately and you're not the only one to think they tack uncomfortably.
Thank you lcl0706 ! :) That's interesting about the Lily. They are beautiful as well, glad it seems to be working for you!
The gore dug into me at first as well, I'm wide set and have a bony sternum, but found with enough persuasion, I was able to bend the very end of the wires outward and it's much more comfortable now. :) I think I wrote about it in my review of the same bra, the newer Marcies have more true to size bands, unlike the older models that ran several inches smaller. That could be why it's too big for your 26" underbust. Hopefully you can make it work, it really is a beautiful bra and its you well! :)
Thank you Slava-Zone ! :) That would make make sense about the band, it's not as supertight as I assumed. Bending the wires might be a good idea (I should do that on my Juna as well). Then again I'm bothered by the twisted gore, it feels like it doesn't really fit in between my boobs. Not quite sure what to do with this one. But it is a beautiful bra indeed!
Nml817 You're welcome, glad I could help. :) I've seen tutorials before about being able to make a gore narrower. I think that with close set breasts, you'd be better off with overlapping wires, which Marcie doesn't have sadly. By the picture, it just looks like the wire casing is just too wide for the space, so like you said one is trying to twist out of the way, which I don't think is a bad thing. It's such a small area of the bra, as long as the rest of the bra is staying in place, I don't think one small area of the bra being twisted will compromise the fit. :) If both wire casings sat flat, they'd probably be cutting into your breasts, which would be ouch!
The Cleo Minnie is the best fitting bra that I own. The Minnie's shape is front and center, which is compatible with my own. It gives a more rounded shape than my Freya plunges, but less than the Cleo Lily. I think it's well made, and the pictures give an accurate representation of its appearance IRL.
I have short, narrow roots, and am even FOT/FOB with lots of inner fullness and average projection. My biggest problem with bras in my size is that the wires tend to be too tall and stabby under my arms, and cups tend to be too tall at the strap ...and the wings. Although the Minnie's cups are still technically too wide, the wires, wings and cup height are low enough to be comfortable. Because my breast tissue does not extend to the outer sides of the cup, the 10" cup depth is just about perfect for my 9" breast depth. The embroidered mesh at the top of the cup angles in perfectly for me. I did need to bend the wires at the gore for comfort when I first wore the bra, but it's been comfortable since. Oh, and it's very supportive, too.
I own this bra in 2 colors. The Sky Blue fit TTS from the beginning. I wore the Navy with an extender for the first few weeks but it now fits TTS. Read more 132 more words
I too am short, narrowish, even with centre fullness and Minnie is my best too!
Hi, I don't know if you'd find it helpful, but my profile page contains a quick summary of how various Cleos fit, with Minnie as the baseline. Maybe I'll get around to writing reviews, but until then....
These cups are unfortunately too wide on me to be comfortable. These cups hate my armpits and my armpits hate them. It's a shame because the 32E Marcie is much nicer to my armpits, but the band is way too stretched out now. https://d28qt14g3opchh.cloudfront.net/smileys/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" />
Have you tried to bend the tips of the wires slightly outwards? Depending on the ribcage shape wires can poke terrible, I have that issue all the time, but by just bending them a bit there will be less pressure and a lot less pain. :)